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The admin of Sunbeam City, @puffinus_puffinus, has offered to take over the instance as a part of their co-op. I think this would be excellent for everyone, but I wanted to see how everyone here felt about this?

sunbeam.city/@puffinus_puffinu

@KT to clarify for you folks, I'm one admin out of a few on SBC, and we, the Sunbeam City Co-operative, may be able to lend a hand in the time after your current admin leaves to help you set up as a co-operative in your own right. This mostly just requires people to be on board with the idea. Come chat to me or others on SBC if you're interested.

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@KT @puffinus_puffinus I have big concerns about the applicability of democratic decision making in social spaces. Hell, I have concerns about the applicability of democratic decision making to anything, because a vote does not necessarily indicate consensus.

A recall process for decisions and/or admins is a good idea. I have been in too many spaces where the folks nominally in control are incapable of taking decisive action (in removing abusers, for instance) to feel comfortable with anything more.

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@starfall @KT are you open to me explaining how things work in the SBC co-operative? We have been running as a co-operative for over a year, though I acknowledge that we have had problems.

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@puffinus_puffinus @KT If you can provide a specific example that would be helpful, but I rarely find explanations useful.

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@starfall @KT
We have about 400 or so active accounts per month. Of those, only a small handful (10 or so) have access to admin / infrastructure accounts.

We are currently chatting casually about what this offer of help would mean for us and for plural.cafe, and if we feel it's necessary, we later will hold a vote. I don't feel a vote will be necessary, judging by how people responding. We don't vote on everything or follow any real guidelines as to how we make decisions.

We previously were more structured and bureaucratic and this led to some of our members struggling to contribute because the co-op had placed unnecessary barriers to participation and contribution.

We tend to chat amongst ourselves (as we are now) if anything needs to be decided, or use polls on Mastodon if the outcome would be useful. For running an instance, at a minimum it requires two roles to be filled, though the more admins the better (we currently have four).

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@puffinus_puffinus @KT I am not certain where this differs from the model of transparent moderation I have in mind, which is either a good sign or a sign of a complete misunderstanding.

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@starfall
Okay. Any member of the co-op can become active as an admin, anyone can step down from admin duties, and most in the co-op do not contribute time or money. If we were to consider running something new, like setting up another service, then we'd most likely push for more interaction through a vote.
@KT

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@starfall O yeah thinking about it another way, everyone that uses SBC doesn't vote and make decisions. It's just the folks that want to, and who have views in the interests of everyone on the instance.

@KT

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@starfall
As a side note, I agree that a vote doesn't indicate consensus. Sunbeam City has switched to consensus, where before we were voting on almost everything. I think it's working better now.

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@starfall @KT @puffinus_puffinus decision making has gotten more direct and consensus-based recently, but I would agree wholeheartedly that we need to have a recall process in place, that's kind of fundamental to keeping things relatively horizontal

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@GreenandBlack @starfall @KT
For recall, wouldn't we would just operate in the same way to make form an agreement? If I've stepped out of line or done something shitty as an admin or individual, I expect to be held to account. I imagine the other people with access to admin accounts feel the same way? It's not really something that's come up though, I don't think.

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@KT @puffinus_puffinus I share the concerns of @starfall to some degree but to me personally mine are no big concerns. (Although I certainly understand why someone could have big concerns about it.) To me, giving that concept a shot is way better than potentially loosing the cafe cause this place has come to mean a lot to me. Speaking for at least two of my headmates as well.

What I'm wondering is: what exactly would be the goal and how would the transition phase look?
I think the goal might be to "onboard" people who are interested in stepping up as admins on how to potentially work in such a co-op, but not "enforcing" admins from outside our community, right? And for the transition some of your admins might become our admins until we're ready to do it on our own? Is that about right?

🌆

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@nightsky_system
Well, here's how I picture it (which is not representative of the co-operative, it's just my ideas):
First off, the goal and transition would be whatever you want really, because we're not colonising, we're attempting to help you set up as a co-operative. One of our aims would be to make you sustainable as a separate co-operative though.
SBC members could take over admin / server duties temporarily, could help you set up funding (if you don't already have something in place), and could show you how we run things to aid you in setting up your own co-operative (which pretty much just needs people to step forward willing to help out).
What you said fits with my ideas.
@KT @starfall

Meta 

@KT @puffinus_puffinus Having read the discussion so far, I don't have any objections. Running an instance beyond personal use seems like too big of a job to expect any individual system to take on for long without help.

re: Meta 

@KT @puffinus_puffinus honestly, we don't really know what this means, but if it helps the instance stay alive, sure. we don't come here much, but it's a nice place

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Plural Café is a community for plural systems and plural-friendly singlets alike, that hopes to foster a safe place for finding and interacting with other systems in the Mastodon fediverse.